"I also will pray. I will beg our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ that he condemn this man to the deepest darkest pit of hell. I will beg Saint Michael Lord of the Host to intercede to keep this most demonic man in external pain and damnation separate from union with our Lord. We are all sinners, and I am one of the worst, but the Church teaches us there are different types of sin. This man had so many times to change course. Father Emmons prayed with an entire prayer circle for this demonic witch-doctor for over 15 years, yet for more than 15 years heaven had to watch the souls of the unbaptized innocents torn apart.
This man kept the severed feet of babies on his desk, for Pete's sake.
I will pray, I will pray hard for the external damnation of Gosnell and all murderers of the innocents like him, who right now, after complete knowledge of what just happened are tearing apart babies as we speak!"
This is a comment from 'The Bard' at Creative Minority Report, responding to a post which stated that Gosnell will receive life in prison instead of the death penalty for his crimes against the young. I was shocked that someone would take credit for such a comment and link their blog to it.
I am not reflecting today on whether Gosnell should have received the death penalty. Abby Johnson doesn't feel that Gosnell should receive the death penalty while 'The Crescat' feels that society has the right to call for this.
I am not a philosopher able to answer the question "can God make a stone too large for Him to lift up?" but St Michael will not, cannot intercede to aid someone in going to hell.
Pro-lifers are hurting; they hurt whenever one of these horrible abortion stories is on their newsfeed. Pro-lifers are weary of praying and working for the millions of hurting, exploited women. They sometimes cry themselves to sleep, mourning the loss of that baby they couldn't save that day at the abortion clinic.
But we must be merciful as our Father is merciful. We must emulate Jesus and pray "not my will, but Your will be done." God wills that all will beg for His mercy. We have no right to pray for someone's eternal damnation. As a convert, one of the aspects of the Catholic Church that I love is that she declares persons saints- basically that person is officially in heaven. The Church does not officially declare anything about the state of the soul of a sinner. The Church lives in hope. Shouldn't we do the same?
Word, Preoteasa.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't believe it wasn't some random troll who wanted to make Catholics look bad...if Gosnell eventually makes it to heaven[after some serious time in heaven's waiting room (purgatory) even if he repents and works to un-do the evil he caused as best he can], he won't be the same person. he will be redeemed. we want this for everyone if we are truly Christians
DeleteIt's people like that commenter that make Catholics (and Christians in general) look bad.
DeletePerfect.
ReplyDeleteJust as Maria Goretti prayed for her murderer, so must we do the same. Those who call for damnation and death are no better than the accused.
ReplyDeletethis is a perfect example!
DeleteI pray for the eventual conversion of Gosnell. However, I do not think that the person wishing him to hell is as bad as Gosnell. The blogger is guilty of an idiotic, emotional (and evil) response to Gosnell's crimes but I don't think that response is as evil as the murder of those little babies.
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Deleteanonymous- I agree! and maybe the person has a cooler head now....but it is one thing to think it, another to publish and let the comment stand...I sound like a broken record, but I pray that God's mercy will extend to all who ask Him...and I might suspect that I am 'less' of a sinner than the obvious bad guys, but that it not my business who is the 'best' -ALL have fallen short..
DeleteAnd I agree with you. I have often looked at the speck in another's eye rather than the log in my own eye. But I can't help thinking the SIN (not necessarily the person)of Gosnell is worse than the blogger's sin. Obviously only God knows what the judgement will be. But yes, all have fallen short including me.
DeleteI cannot tell you how this speaks to the way I am feeling right now. I'm practically curled up in a fetal position asking God to heal the wounds of so many.
ReplyDeleteIt is so awful that there is so much evil in the world- but we are called to do the hard work and keep the door open...
DeleteHow arrogant of you to walk into a room full of Black people (the Internet) and say that you are praying for all slave holders, and hope they are in heaven waiting for them. And how arrogant of you to be surprised when some of the Black people say "...I do not pray for the slave holders." This is what I think Jews feel when so-called Christians publicly say "I pray for Hitler and all the NAZI killers." This is what I think survivors of the abortion industry feel when they read your post.
ReplyDeleteHow evil of you to inflict so much damage to the Body of Christ, the Union of Christians when you then follow that up with "...you are less of a Christian than I am..." Are you mad? You claim the Americans of African, Jews or the many, many victims of the abortion industry who read your post and who disagree with you are "...giving Christians a bad name...?" Yet your ignore your own arrogance and cruelty to these survivors?
You equate me with a "random troll" for believing differently than you? You don't know the mind of God any better than I do. Your prayers are not any better or worse than mine. Was it God's plan that Scott Roeder kill Tillman? You don't know, neither do I.
I have served in and around the military and often with Catholic chaplains in around (active duty and contractor) for decades. Not one. Not a single Priest who is serving then needs of Catholics in war have EVER asked soldiers fighting the enemy to pray for the enemy. Not that I have seen or heard about. Yet you know better?
I pray that every abortionist drop dead today, and save the innocent un-baptized souls scheduled to die today, tomorrow, the next day...
I wrote a full response here: http://charlescarrollsociety.com/2013/05/16/my-prayer-for-the-witch-doctor-gosnell/
Dear Priest's Wife,
DeleteI think one of the most basic tenants of Christianity is to NOT return evil for evil. Therefore I agree with you and not "the bard".
The original comment that precipitated this post and the Bard's reply bring to mind this passage from Isaiah 55...
Delete"Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:6-11
Maybe it's just me, but I am SO happy that God's ways are higher than mine and He is the ultimate judge. It means that He alone decides who goes to Heaven and whatever judgment happens isn't tampered with by unmerciful thoughts.
Thanks, for this, Khouria.
DeleteI'm sorry that I used the word 'troll' in my comment- it is internet-ese for a commenter who leaves a comment just to stir things up, but I can see where it was hurtful.
ReplyDeletebecause of your connections with the military, I suggest that you show your original comment to a trusted military chaplain- will he agree that it is right to actively pray for the soul of Gosnell to be in hell, to pray to God and St Michael to send him there?
Gosnell is not in my daily prayers. I suppose if I come across a Bible verse that states something about praying for those who persecute you or when Jesus was on the cross, forgiving the thief, Gosnell might come to mind and I reluctantly pray that he will radically change (and he free of the demons that he is possessed with)
maybe my mind is too small- but I can't imagine that I will be angry with a public sinner being in heaven (I can't imagine him ever getting there...maybe in the harshest 'region' of purgatory...) if/when I am in heaven. Seeing the face of God will be our focus.
That's why I just pray the formulated prayers accepted by the Church, so I don't have to worry too much about who I'm praying for.
DeleteThis can be a great idea- pray...and leave it to God- it is His anyway
DeleteI just re-read my post and I stand by everything I wrote. If you think I am being overly feminine and one of those 'wife of priest' types that feminizes the Church, I am sorry.
ReplyDeleteI cling to verses such as these, praying for God's mercy on me and my family.
1 Timothy 2
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
2 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:
2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Matthew 18:14
ReplyDeleteEven so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
so Gosnell persisting in sin is against God's will (obviously)
Our Father Who Art in the Heavens. Hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom Come. Thy will be done, on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation; but, deliver us, from the evil one.
ReplyDeleteI'm reminded by a story Archimandrite Irenei relayed, via one of his podcasts: One monk was so angry at one of his brother's; and didn't initially want to forgive him. Then, the Abbot told him to recite the following: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we don't forgive those who trespass against us.." At that point, the young monk felt ashamed, repenting of his attitude.
Father Cailin's homily on spiritual warfare, from last year, still sticks in my head; and it's the messiest war any of us will fight.
I'm reminded further of the passion, of our Lord, who withstood all that was being thrown at him; and went through the divine plan. Reading the Letters of St. Peter only reinforced this attitude all the more..
In Eastern thought, the yardstick is mercy, not justice.
And also in Western thought brother.
DeleteI agree it is. But, it's not as pronounced, for various reasons.
DeleteIt's one thing to say, "I can't quite bring myself to pray for Gosnell's redemption." Quite another to pray for his damnation. As Fluid Motion and Design points out, the prayer Christ himself taught us to say, "Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us." If you wish God to withhold his mercy from Gosnell, then how can you possibly hope to claim it for yourself?
ReplyDeletePlease forgive those who pray for Gosnell's damnation for they know not what they do.
DeleteI do not besmirch your your choices for publicly praying for the vilest humans. I take deep offense at you besmirching me for praying for the opposite.
ReplyDeleteThe New American Bible, Saint Joseph Edition. The Book of Jeremiah combines history, biography and prophecy. Jeremiah Chapter 7: 16 Abuses in Worship. "You, now, do not intercede for this people; raise not in their behalf a pleading prayer. Do not urge me, for I will not listen to you."
I pray for judgement for all abortionist. I willingly submit myself to the same judgement. It is the least I can do. Like a Christian solider, who falls in defense of the little ones, if I do not measure up and the Lord rejects me, I shall be at peace with my choices.
The Bard, I understand where you're coming from, with your sentiments. You want Gosnell to pay for his deeds. I do, too. But, I also understand God will sort out that judgment, in His time, in His place; and, in His way; and that's something we all have to be at peace with.
DeleteAs far as the passage is concerned, it's easy to parse verses, without putting them into the proper context. One of the psalms I pray, for the Hours, it mentions the slaying of sinners of the earth, destroying from the city of the lord, all the workers of lawlessness. It's quite easy to take this very statement out of context, too. But, this in and out of context deal is beside the point; and will not harp on it, any further.
There's a small problem with that reasoning, The Bard. God does not call us to judge others -- He calls us to show mercy as He shows mercy. This means that if we judge people as harshly as you are doing, He will judge us the same way. There is also no hierarchy of sin -- it all separates us from God and it all causes us to fall short. Pride is just as bad as murder or theft because it puts ourselves on a pedestal where God should be.
DeleteIt seems to me that Christ died for all of our sins. The old Testament verse "the Bard" chose didn't reflect His Sacrifice, even for the unspeakable evil Gosnell displayed for us all. God willing these poor children will open the eyes of the lost who believe abortion is valid. They are martyrs and have fallen on the sword to save every "indestructible" soul.
ReplyDeleteI believe that we condemn ourselves with this eternal judgment regarding others. Their actions we can judge, we can have justified anger at these actions, but we cannot fall into the sin ourselves of damning someone to hell. It seems like a Catch-22, but it's really His call.
God Bless us all.
Agreed, VOCAL.
DeleteI appreciate ALL of these comments- you readers are deep thinkers!
ReplyDeleteSuch a good post on this. As awful as people can be, we are not their judge. When Casey Anthony was found innocent, people here in FL said terrible things about her...wished her all kinds of punishment and death. I do believe she killed her daughter, but only God can see the human heart and He alone can determine justice. I pray the Gosnell trial brings to light the risk of abortion, and enables Americans to re-think it altogether. I'm a new follower. I'm Catholic too, and I love finding other believers in the blogoshere.
ReplyDeletefrom The Dugout
Welcome Mare! Thanks for comment
DeleteThanks for pointing this out today. I think it's important for us to remember Christ's words about praying for our enemies. He came to show us a more perfect way, to show us that unless we are sinless, we have no right to ask for the damnation of others. I, too, pray for Gosnell's soul and for his salvation.
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